Curse

Ledah · Feb 24, 2008, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Bad overpowered skills become just bad if you nerf them. I'd rather have the second though.

Tyla · Feb 24, 2008, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Remove 3/4 off Pious Assault. (maybe the remove enchant bit too.)
Hit recharge of MindBlast & Siphon Speed.
REMOVE ViO!!!
Lower Ancestor's Rage damage.
If not remove the "lose 1 enchantment" on Pious Assault, at least make adjustments to Grenth's Aura. (as kvp said, lower to adjacent)
Hit GoLE, Aegis..

Tamuril elansar · Feb 24, 2008, 12:06 PM // 12:06

siphon speed - 10s recharge, maybe 10energy.
Anchestors rage - lower the damage a little.
and we need better game balancers.

Whammo · Feb 24, 2008, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Problems:

ViO
Increased NPC power each min after VoD
Slightly OP mind blast
Ancestors a little too strong for cost
Sins are bad concept classes to begin with
--shroud- 10s blackout with no drawback?
--siphon speed- low energy spammable snare
--shadowstepping- gets rid of all positioning
Pious assault synergy too good and fast
Bad map rotation (rolling dice for maps? o ok)

That pretty much apart from the shroud. O and:

shadowstepping- gets rid of all positioning
shadowstepping- gets rid of all positioning
shadowstepping- gets rid of all positioning
Get it?

Melee classes with nothing but energy attacks are a bad idea since all it encourages is spiking, makes em look like melee casters :/.
The whole idea that makes melee good for the game is their ability to pressure, and these classes (dervish/assassin) don't do that.

A class with a low base damage + the need to chain 5 attacks to be able to do anything (insta gib shit) is bad. I makes for one-dimentional mindless buton mash templates that can't pressure for shit and without any room for utility skills.
That will only go two ways, factions where sins were useless. Or after NF where they just run around and kill stuff because their combo's do too much damage to quickly.
Same for Dervishes, you will either have enough damage to spike and use em for that or you don't and you won't touch em, there is no middle path.
Bad design choice tbh.

Lorekeeper · Feb 24, 2008, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Remove ViO

Select maps for the AT map rotation to give a mixture of split maps (druids, frozen etc), 8vs8 maps (burning isle etc), and maps that favour both styles. The map for the finals in the MaT should be decided randomly so neither team knows where they are playing until the match starts, best out of 3 matches wins.

No more randomised map selection!

This means build wars remains a large component of tournaments (like always) but in the finals guilds must show their tactical flexibility and adaptability in order to win (since you dont know the map you dont know if sinsplit will work so well, nor do you know if dual dervish spike will work so well etc etc). Build wars should play a minimal role in the outcome of a gold cape final... (assuming not knowing the map will help reduce build wars).

Skill balances

Assassins

Augury of death - increased recharge to 20 seconds
Impale - increased energy cost to 10 energy
Siphon speed - increased recharge to 15 seconds
Aura of displacement/Shadow meld - if you move out of radar range of where you cast the enchantment the enchantment ends.

Dervish

Grenths Aura - reduced aoe range from nearby to adjacent
Pious Assault - now has normal activation time

Elementalist

Rodgorts invocation - increased recharge to 15 seconds
Glyph of lesser energy - at 0 spec this reduces the cost of your next 2 spells by 5 energy
Mind blast - If you have more energy than target foe you gain 1...6...8 energy.

Mesmer

Power leak - energy destroyed is 15 energy at 14 domination

Monk

Light of deliverence - reverted to old behaviour with a recharge of 7 seconds
Shield of deflection - reduced recharge to 7 seconds and duration to 7 seconds
Guardian - reverted most recent buff
Signet of Devotion - reduced cast time to 1 second
Divine healing/Heavens delight - increased amount healed by 10 points
Divine intervention - reduced recharge to 15 seconds
Divine Spirit - reduced recharge to 45 seconds

Necromancer

Rigor Mortis - increased casting time to 2 seconds

Paragon

reduced attack rate of spears to 1.75 seconds
Song of restoration - reverted to old behaviour and increased cost to 10 energy
Mending refrain - is now no longer an echo

Ranger

Rampage as One - reduced attack speed buff to 25%

Jade Zephyr · Feb 24, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

I think Lorekeeper got most of it right. Still think Rodgorts should be 8-10 recharge though.

Riotgear · Feb 24, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

I think GoLE's improvements to the diversity of the game is an overall-positive contribution. Just change it to:

For 15 seconds, you gain 100% of the base Energy cost of your next two spells, maximum 10..16 Energy.

Akaraxle · Feb 24, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

I don't see how Rodgort is such a big deal, tossing a random interrupt already cuts 25e off the guy's bar. If you're bad enough to keep balling under Rodgort, you deserve to blow up. If he's guillible enough to keep spamming it, punish him. Once and if Mind Blast gets fixed, it won't be that much of a problem anymore.

Uetzcayotl · Feb 24, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Paragon

Chants no longer stack. If a new chant replaces an old one, echoes and finales are not triggered.

Any skill that removes stances removes shouts.

It gets rid of teams with too many paragons and keeps 1 - 2 viable if some chants are improved at the same time. Maybe.

Zabe · Feb 24, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I think GoLE's improvements to the diversity of the game is an overall-positive contribution. Just change it to:

For 15 seconds, you gain 100% of the base Energy cost of your next two spells, maximum 10..16 Energy.

I say that nerf it to 5 or 0 energy at 0 spec. It haven't contributed anything to the game except terribad aegis cancelspamming and spamming SoD in recharge.

Symbol · Feb 24, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

I don't understand why mind blast is a "problem"?

The only reason people are running it in sinsplit is because clumsiness got smacked with the nerf stick.

Is there something terribly OP about fire eles all of a sudden? They seem to have the same problems they've always had (hugely vulnerable to caster hate and skill disable, no damage compression or deep wound, limited access to KDs, squishy).

What exactly is the problem with a viable caster damage template? It's not like mind blast leads to degenerate caster spikes so...

Surena · Feb 24, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Before people would mention the fragility of Mindblast due to its "spamminess" (Hi Diversion), now that it found its way into Sinsplit people suddenly scream for a nerf. People should not judge out of anger. Sins are a much greater problem than Mindblasters.

Also no to changing the spear attack rate. That'll never happen.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 24, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

Before people would mention the fragility of Mindblast due to its "spamminess" (Hi Diversion), now that it found its way into Sinsplit people suddenly scream for a nerf. People should not judge out of anger. Sins are a much greater problem than Mindblasters.

Mindblasters have always been a bit overpowered, they were only kept in check by power leak. A power leak or 2 on the attunement or power leak + stripping it would usually absolutely destroy the character for a while at the stand. Of course, now that power leak is weakened and dom mesmers aren't anywhere near the metagame either way, things are a little different.

Lorekeeper · Feb 24, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

Before people would mention the fragility of Mindblast due to its "spamminess" (Hi Diversion), now that it found its way into Sinsplit people suddenly scream for a nerf. People should not judge out of anger. Sins are a much greater problem than Mindblasters.

Also no to changing the spear attack rate. That'll never happen.

Then nerf aggressive refrain to reduce damage from attacks (not attack skills) by 15% or 25% like flurry =)

Symbol · Feb 24, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Mindblasters have always been a bit overpowered, they were only kept in check by power leak. A power leak or 2 on the attunement or power leak + stripping it would usually absolutely destroy the character for a while at the stand. Of course, now that power leak is weakened and dom mesmers aren't anywhere near the metagame either way, things are a little different.

Well power leak + attune strip still does that. Or power leak on a rodgort's. Or power lock on mind blast. Or dshot. Or diversion. Characters that have to cast all the time just aren't very robust in the face of disruption.

You still don't see mind blasters in builds meant to fight 8v8--the template hasn't become stronger, it's just that the rest of the game has changed.

This whole discussion is wrong-headed IMO. Get rid of ViO first and then talk.

Divinus Stella · Feb 24, 2008, 04:21 PM // 16:21

They need to half the number of NPC's before changing skills, i think it would help a lot to change the current focus on VoD.

Riotgear · Feb 24, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Then nerf aggressive refrain to reduce damage from attacks (not attack skills) by 15% or 25% like flurry =)

Or change it to +adrenaline instead of IAS.

DutchSmurf · Feb 24, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

They need to half the number of NPC's before changing skills, i think it would help a lot to change the current focus on VoD.

Can agree with that. They should have never increased the number of NPCs anyway. In my opinion there shouldn't be any archers except for the ones on the outside. Maybe add an extra knight to make up for the loss of those 5 archers (on Druids it is 5). And if they don't remove ViO, at least make it scale with the difference in NPCs between the 2 teams.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 24, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Well power leak + attune strip still does that. Or power leak on a rodgort's. Or power lock on mind blast. Or dshot. Or diversion. Characters that have to cast all the time just aren't very robust in the face of disruption.

You still don't see mind blasters in builds meant to fight 8v8--the template hasn't become stronger, it's just that the rest of the game has changed.

This whole discussion is wrong-headed IMO. Get rid of ViO first and then talk.

I'll agree with that, but it remains that mind-blasters are a little too strong in the new split-dominated meta. The E/D template is an extremely strong split character that combines almost everything you'd want on a split. Removing ViO and reducing the power of NPCs would go a long way towards bringing the split metagame down, but the E/D would still have the potential to dominate split games.

Of course, I don't mind it too much. A relatively small toning down would help bring it's level down just a little, a couple seconds on the recharge or a little bit less energy.

Symbol · Feb 24, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

When I play E/D I always feel that my energy is on the border of playability. It's a pretty tricky balance to juggle mind blast with the two expensive money skills on your bar (rodgort's and bflash) while dodging interrupts, etc, without resorting to mind blasting warriors all the time. That's why I think any nerf could potentially remove this character from play entirely.

While I definitely think this is a strong, versatile split character, it doesn't _dominate_ IMO. There's some pretty nice diversity in split templates now with the new coward sword warrior, cripshot rangers, mind blasters, along with traditional runner bars like the WoR rit, and I don't want to see it reduced.